Saturday, September 29, 2007

The Wealthy Barber

The Wealthy Barber, a book on personal economy. His "humorous" style with fictional characters debating and chiding each other is an acquired taste, but the book has much sage advice.

I've been thinking a little about the "penny wise and pound foolish" principle. Meaning of course that many of us often can't see the forest for the trees. (If you can explain a proverb with another one...)

For example, many people, including myself, will use a lot of thought and effort saving a few cents in the groceries and the daily life, and then we might suddenly spend hundreds of dollars on a purchase without considering if we really need it or want it. Or if we could get the same or similar much cheaper with a little comparison shopping. (Very easy after the Internet arrived.)

In my experience, a bit of thought going into prioritizing pays off big.

My sister and her husband both work hard and long hours to pay for their nice life and the two boys. And they have a large house which is well heated due to my sister's liking for a warm room. I asked my sister what their heating bill is like. She said she has no idea. I asked her husband the same. He said the same. They have no idea.

That's silly. I have no doubt that they could save serious money if they paid just the bare minimum of attention to such things. And such savings could go towards more leisure time with their kids, or towards a rainy day, or towards the education of the children.

Final Identity said...
My "right path" is (as would be a similar case for nearly anyone) lots of sex with nubile co-eds, and lots of sitting on the beach reading good books, and lots of hanging out at sidewalk cafes discussing politics and philosophy. Any thoughts about how "finding" that "right path" leads to profit?

Eolake said...
I think you took a wrong turn off the right path before this lifetime. You should have been born into a wealthy family with a lezzie-faire attitude to work ethic.
(Lezzie-faire: lesbian sex with blondes.)
---
Anyway... it seems to me that the objections to this book, that it won't work in practice except if people are already predisposed for it, can also be levelled against The 4-Hour Work Week. N'est pas?

54 comments:

Anonymous said...

We're taught to work hard, not smart. Worse still we're taught the hard way is the smart way, putting the uninitiated in a double bind. Couple this with an overall philosophy of lack and a "need" for material things and you have the society we inhabit today.

It's the pursuit of happiness gone in the wrong direction. Of course lack of common sense is a big part of this as well, but I don't think so many would lack the sense if they weren't under the impression that happiness is the most important thing in life and spending lots of money is the way to get it.

Note, I'm not denying the importance of happiness. But one has to reach deeper than the mere feeling found in our reaction to favorable circumstance. We want to be happy but we cannot be so until we have peace, and we do not have peace until we are unshakable. In other words, find the thing of greatest importance and all things of lesser importance are yours if you wish it.

People don't have actual priorities. They don't have an aim in mind. They are not taught to be creative or lead fulfilling lives, they are taught to survive and find whatever distractions they can to keep occupied when they're not working. I know it seems like I'm going way off topic, but even something so small as this stems from much deeper issues. It's the fact that most people scoff at this idea that prevents them from becoming conscious of it and ridding themselves of the problem. What we look at as matters of budget or common sense cannot be remedied by mere common sense systems; one must look to the heart.

Eolake Stobblehouse said...

I think it's best to do both. A lack of common sense with create unnecessary distractions from pursuit of matters of the soul.

Anonymous said...

Oh, I didn't mean to discourage taking care of practical matters, I'm saying the heart of the issue lies deeper than most people go.

Pascal [P-04referent] said...

"find the thing of greatest importance and all things of lesser importance are yours if you wish it."

And if they're not, will you even care? :-)

Cliff Prince said...

Yeah, "work smart not hard" is something my parents have a hard time with. That, and they seem to assume that if you're at the office all day, you must have been a productive good citizen. There's an old adage quoted often in one of my favorite career books, that "work is the glue which bonds society together." I utterly disagree. For most of us, work is the force which drives us apart. Sad but true.

My favorite books about this sort of thing:

Your Money or Your Life. by Dominguez and Robin. About 30 years old now, this book offers a mathematical, chart-based method for trading off "life energy" versus money spent or earned, so that you can learn to re-prioritize.

What Color is Your Parachute. by Bolles. Classic job-hunting bible, the basic premise of which is to know who you are and what sorts of tasks you enjoy, and then go out and "build" that job by finagling the employment marketplace.

Four Hour Work Week. by Ferriss. Interesting take on what the value of work really is, what our true currencies are (we value leisure and mobility just as much as cash, so why not trade in for some of it?), how to leverage your skills and live like a (wealthy) vagabond.

There are lots of others. I read Wealthy Barber a while back -- pay yourself first, save 10%, learn to prioritize your savings and spendings, distinguish between before-tax and after-tax benefits and detriments, etc. I read Rich Dad Poor Dad by Kiyosaki, too, and there are valid lessons in all of them.

None of it really RANG TRUE for me, though. There's a base assumption in all the financial-advice books, that we're all happy to be white middle class cubicle drones. Only the Ferriss work (above) has a different core assumption. I worked too hard in school to have to continue to work like a moron. One reason I have habitually been attracted to academia and "the life of the mind" is that you get to create WHEN YOU ARE READY, rather than just the same rate all the time. Professors have it made. I tried to become one but failed. :(

Eolake Stobblehouse said...

"There's a base assumption in all the financial-advice books, that we're all happy to be white middle class cubicle drones."

Mmm, I would argue with that. Most of the advice is quite independent of that assumption. For example "Cathy" in The Wealthy Barber is a successful entrepreneur.

Anonymous said...

I'm grateful for your recommendations of useful books and all kinds of gadgets, Eolake.

Anonymous said...

...and the same goes for your useful pragmatic tips, FI :-)

Eolake Stobblehouse said...

Thank you, MB.

Anonymous said...

I'll second that. The tips on this blog, be it from the captain himself or from one of his loyal commentators, is the main reason I started to frequent here in the first place.

Yes the Wealthy Barber is part of the pay-yourself-first-save-10% genre of literature of which the cumulative number of titles now run in tens of thousands. It is a useful mindset to understand, but it does not get you very far if you have not identified what you are supposed to do on this planet to begin with. Or if you don't know, as it's sometimes called, your Intention in life --- or, as Crowley put it, your True Will.

On the other hand, once you have identified it, you will quite naturally implement whatever steps are necessary to get what you want out of life, making the lesson in the book somewhat moot.

The big problem with this book and its kind is that it looks at life from the perspective of money. Not from the perspective of experiencing it.

Life is not about saving, or about getting rich, or about becoming financially independent. Life is about experiences. Doing. Money helps a great deal, of course. But not if it consumes you so you forget to live. Tim Ferriss gets this better than any of the old school self-help authors I know of.

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Eolake Stobblehouse said...

"On the other hand, once you have identified it, you will quite naturally implement whatever steps are necessary to get what you want out of life, making the lesson in the book somewhat moot."

I beg to differ. Even somebody who is following his heart can get hurt by poor planning.

Anonymous said...

Well, planning doesn't hurt, of course. But I have never heard of a single person who would have become wealthy, or even financially independent, from reading this message from a book and then applying it. People either have implemented it in some form or another starting early in their life (frugality being part of their personality), or they've become wealthy primarily through other means.

Not even the preachers of the method acquired their wealth this way. Brian Tracy, Jim Rohn, and others all acquired their wealth from teaching the method, not from applying it. They certainly do apply it (if you have more money than you can spend you do of course save and invest).

Perhaps there are some pay-yourself-10%-first millionaires, but the books certainly don't give any such examples. Rather, in practically all examples, people become wealthy by discovering how to apply their unique skills into something needed in the marketplace. This then catapults their earnings into a level where they can easily implement all kinds of strategies with their money. Including this one.

There's nothing at flaw in the method itself, of course. The mental trickery has to do with the way it's portrayed as a means to an end. A bit like investing in stocks is portrayed as a way to become rich when simple mathematics show that simply working in your own field is a much more lucrative proposition. Why else is there stock brokers in the first place? Why aren't they all playing the market? Because brokerage comissions is a better source of income than playing.

Eolake Stobblehouse said...

Sure, you have some excellent points there.

I think, though, that persons on any income level can gain from the knowledge and the discipline taught in these kinds of books.

Eolake Stobblehouse said...

I know I am gaining from them. Even though I could live quite sloppily and still live beneath my means, I find pleasure in applying some thought and care to it.

And if I had learned this when I was young, my life would have been easier.

Cliff Prince said...

Eolake:

I suggested I kind-of disliked much financial advice because it ran on an assumption that a cubicle was an enjoyable place to be.

You countered that some characters in "Wealthy Barber" are entrepreneurs.

I counter-counter, that "to be an entrepreneur" seems, to me, equivalently stultifying boring dull and a waste-of-a-life as would be cubicle-dwelling. To me they're one and the same. I realize that, to you or others who might value entrepreneurship or the lifestyle that could go with it, the two are radically different. That's fine FOR THOSE PEOPLE. But for me, anything that smacks of "business" is inherently a bad choice in the first place.

I put "business" in quotes because I mean something rather specific about it. I know I'm questioning typical Western assumptions about the "right" way to live a life, but here goes anyway: I don't want to profit-and-loss my way through this world. I don't believe in that. I want to do the right thing instead. If it's in a cubicle, or totally outdoors but still trying to make a buck, it's craven, to me. I want something different. No financial advice, whether about saving for the future, or building a dream business, or just getting by, that I've found in any book, has EVER managed to stand outside that assumption.

"The Four Hour Work Week" is just about as close as I've ever gotten. It suggests that we don't LIKE work, and therefore we can learn to NOT do work, but AUTOMATE some things so that we can be more mobile and have more free time. So it's about trading in time and mobility as currencies, and also about certain tasks that allow automation. That's pretty close to shattering the old assumptions, but for me it's still too much in the wrong vein.

I just don't think that Shakespeare believed he was "making a buck." He was writing what he considered a great play. If the audiences disliked it, he knew they had good opinions, they were in fact rather bright people. But it wasn't about ticket sales per se, it was about their wise preferences. Likewise Matisse wasn't thinking, "make a paper cut that sells." He was thinking, "Which image balances best with which other one? What are the line and form? Which looks best?" and so on. They made plenty of money in their lives, by never following the money trail.

In fact, I was trying to argue for this very point of view back in an earlier thread when I kind of got misunderstood, as people tried to tell me to stop chasing after money, among other things. (Funny, that in that instance I was perceived as the one with craven money-hunger. What a miscommunication!) For me, when I read a financial planning book, I get a sense of ... dread. It is just all ... wrong. Kind of like I felt the first day I had to go in to an office to do work. It was never fulfilling. Always "what an awful waste of a life. I'd rather be digging latrines."

I kind of literally mean that. I have dug ditches for a living. I get a different sense of dread from that -- the dread of hunger. It doesn't pay enough to give me food, so I choose to move on from it. And there are office jobs that invigorate me rather than give me dread, such as figuring out complicated rational problems, being certified to be the person who is in charge of them, having some power over my circumstances. So I'm not ALL anti-cubicle. I'm just trying to communicate the simple idea, that it doesn't ring true for me, and entrepreneurship wouldn't either.

At least, I don't think it would. It seems such a huge waste of a life. Does anyone here think that Ray Kroc (McDonalds CEO / multi-millionaire) did something good for mankind? I mean, aside from any eventual philanthropic gestures he made later in his life after he made his millions (which I don't discredit; but were they REALLY "part of the long-term plan"?), wouldn't it be fair to say he should be EMBARRASSED to have brought more big macs to more people than ever before?

Eolake Stobblehouse said...

You could be an entrepreneur doing something you like. Some people are.

Of course if there is nothing you like doing which could be considered productive by other people, then I guess you're frigged.

Anonymous said...

"I beg to differ. Even somebody who is following his heart can get hurt by poor planning."

Someone who's truly following his heart will not become victim to poor planning. This isn't a pursuit for the reckless.

Anonymous said...

My boss sez I've got a bile quota to meet for this evening, but I'm feeling under the weather today, honestly, and I really don't have the energy to read all those tempting comments before trashing them with a stone club.

So, please consider yourselves to all have been insulted for the day: "Your ideas suck deep-freezed peas through a cheap plastic straw, leaving my breath short. I randomly cast a sideways look of half-hearted contempt in your general direction."
There, that should pay the bills. :)

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation, and good day to you. God, my bed has never looked more tempting! Zzzzzzzzzz......

Anonymous said...

Oh my. R.a.f., you have shaken me to my very core. My existence no longer has meaning. Well done, sir. Well done.

Cliff Prince said...

Eolake:

Yeah, of course it's an issue at some point of other people agreeing to give up some of their resources in exchange for my effort and/or resources. I understand that. What I don't get is why many many people seem to be able to get some kind of quasi-religious "transcendence" from this experience. I don't deny that trade exists, and is often a kinda fun little pastime, and is certainly a useful activity, especially if you're good enough at it or have something valued enough that you get out of it what feels like more than you put into it. Sure, all in the normal course of human events. Totally standard.

But "meaningful" or "ties society together" or "productive"? No. I observe and contemplate works of serious religious thought, and great art that associates well with those thoughts, to find religious meaning. All of us do. Somehow Ray Kroc has convinced us all that distributing Big Macs is something to be proud of, but reading Shakespeare isn't, and the whole big system of society out there is getting more and more geared toward the Big Macs and away from the Shakespeare. At some point we're likely to start evaluating grade-school level students on the basis of whether or not they manage to make a profit off of their long division homework.

Anonymous said...

"Of course if there is nothing you like doing which could be considered productive by other people, then I guess you're frigged."

I am absolutely sure there is no action that could not be used to earn a living from. (I have an elegant proof for this but it doesn't fit in the margin. :-)

I've said this before but it's a perfect example: Some people even make a living by posting nudie pics on their web site.

It's not a question of being considered productive by other people. Rather it's about creating the outcome you want.

I think I'll start a study group to teach this to myself and others.

Cliff Prince said...

TTL said: ---"I am absolutely sure there is no action that could not be used to earn a living from. (I have an elegant proof for this but it doesn't fit in the margin. :-)

I've said this before but it's a perfect example: Some people even make a living by posting nudie pics on their web site.

It's not a question of being considered productive by other people. Rather it's about creating the outcome you want.

I think I'll start a study group to teach this to myself and others."---

I'd be happy to join. I failed undergrad intro to economics (and yet I was taking this freshman-level class as a senior with a straight-A record). Please don't organize this group around such platitudes as, "You gotta really want it," or "If you want to make omelettes then ya gotta break eggs," or "You just haven't chosen the right path yet," or similar statements which require a type of enthusiasm for business which I genetically (emotionally?) lack. If you can do that, then I'd be happy to support the endeavor, and I'd be VERY excited about learning from it.

Anonymous said...

I am thinking about this. I.e. writing down those strategies I personally have tested and have found to work.

I've actually been meaning to do this for some time as a way of reminding myself what has worked in the past. Perhaps if I consider a wider audience (that just me) I might actually get it done.

I'll keep you posted.

Anonymous said...

I've got to hand it to you, TTL. You do enjoy talking out of your ass. Why deal in facts, why do any work, when you can just make shit up? It's a lot less effort, and you don't have to get up off your fat ass to do it.

Anonymous said...

Ah, more gems from our lazy-as-hell Final Identity. He's definitely that type who believes the world owes him a living, and that he's not doing as well as he wants because the world has conspired against him. What a fucking loser! If he wants to be taken seriously, he might want to consider another picture - one that doesn't make him look like a brain-dead hick.

Anonymous said...

Be sure to let us know, TTL. I would be interested as well.

Pascal [P-04referent] said...

He-he-hey, Anonymous, old twig! Welcome back, we almost missed you, dear boy.
I can't stand white chocolate because it lacks the bitterness that makes chocolate taste so unique. You guys, Anon and RAF, are like that: the gourmet touch of bitterness that prevents this blog from becoming sickeningly sugary sweet with consensus and back-patting. Thank you so much for your heartfelt efforts, fellas. :-)

TTL said...
"I think I'll start a study group to teach this to myself and others."


I say, this sounds like a brilliant idea, old chap.

Final Identity said...
Please don't organize this group around such platitudes as [...] "You just haven't chosen the right path yet"


Actually, though that last one is a bona fide cliché, I feel it's not a platitude. Finding the right path is what a happy professional life is all about. Cliché, but true.

P.S.: R.A.F., I hope you get well soon. Bile is essential for the good digestion of fatty foods like chocolate.

Anonymous said...

Pascal said:
"Thank you so much for your heartfelt efforts, fellas. :-)"

No problem. Just happy to be on the team!

Cliff Prince said...

My "right path" is (as would be a similar case for nearly anyone) lots of sex with nubile co-eds, and lots of sitting on the beach reading good books, and lots of hanging out at sidewalk cafes discussing politics and philosophy. Any thoughts about how "finding" that "right path" leads to profit?

Eolake Stobblehouse said...

I think you took a wrong turn off the right path before this lifetime. You should have been born into a wealthy family with a lezzie-faire attitude to work ethic.

(Lezzie-faire: lesbian sex with blondes.)

Anonymous said...

Final identify defined: "My "right path" is ... lots of sex with nubile co-eds, and lots of sitting on the beach reading good books, and lots of hanging out at sidewalk cafes discussing politics and philosophy. Any thoughts about how "finding" that "right path" leads to profit?"

I thought you wanted to take it easy. The scenario you describe would rank as hard work for me.

It is quite reasonable to expect monetary compensation for spending time outside and engaging in discussions with strangers. Not to mention the sex --- that's physical labor!

You may want to consider documenting your experiences (in writing or photography) and publishing those; or have the people you meet support your lifestyle, either directly or indirectly.

Perhaps the easiest way is to develop some gimmick on the side. Example: While spending his evenings in New York bars, Hugh MacLeod began to scribble on the back sides of business cards. He then started to scan those cards and publish them on the web. By now he has done thousands of them and is doing quite well, I understand.

The possibilities are infinite.

In his latter years Salvador Dalí never paid for his restaurant bills. After signing the check he, with the waiter still watching, produced a drawing on the back side. The waiter, realising that he now was in possession of a Dalí original, never cached the check. This is the closest I've heard of anyone printing his own money.

If instead of telling the above story, I would have said: It's fully possible to print your own money and use it as legal tender to pay your restaurant bill. Would you have believed me?

Anonymous said...

Eolake said: "Anyway... it seems to me that the objections to this book, that it won't work in practice except if people are already predisposed for it, can also be levelled against The 4-Hour Work Week. N'est pas?"

The difference is that with the pay-yourself-10%-first philosophy it will take a hell of a lot of decades to get anywhere if your present income is small (or zero).

In contrast, Tim Ferriss advocates an analytic, optimizing, can-do attitude with which it is possible to get results very fast. It not right now.

Eolake Stobblehouse said...

Yes, it's very cool, and if anybody else but himself really makes it work, I'd love to hear about it.

Pascal [P-04referent] said...

I *WOULD* have suggested the gigolo profession, Final, but if you've seen Deuce Bigelow you'll know same as me that such work can be unpleasurable at times.

Although, no to give clichés too much support, many lonely women aren't one bit repulsive, they're just disheartened by the selfishness of common men when it comes to sex.

I'm reminded of Eolake's 102y/o virgin. I would have done that job pro bono, just to do the dear touching maiden a well-deserved favor. That's me all over, mister heart of gold and ready to hand it to the world. ;-)

"The waiter, realising that he now was in possession of a Dalí original, never cashed the check. This is the closest I've heard of anyone printing his own money."

Dali might have been mad, but he was undoubtedly a genius. With panache, too! :-D
I hear Picasso took a blank notebook on his vacations instead of a checkbook, and "printed" signed sketches too. He would pay shopkeepers that way instead of checks, and they were very happy.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of paths, I have to follow mine. Time for work:

"You people are like the fancy vacuum cleaners I used to sell door-to-door in my early teens: either you suck, or you blow, and it's all wind in the bag."

There, see? I told you I had a genuine gift for clever insult!
Nothing personal, right? It's strictly business.
Well, that's it for today then. You all have a good day. Buh-bye.

Who's next on the list? Oh, right. The CIA wants me to praise barbecued pork chops on Bin Laden's blog. Rather risky, but it pays very well.

Anonymous said...

If any angry guys with big beards and bigger swords happen to ask, you haven't seen me all week, okay?

[Panting R.A.F. has left the blog]

Cliff Prince said...

I agree with the Tim Ferriss / 4HWW "philosophy" but found that in practice an awful lot is left out of the book that I also lack. I can't really blame Ferriss for this -- he doesn't claim to be able to fix all your practical issues in his book, nor could he even try! -- but I do find that the promise of the book pales when implementation is attempted. It requires a VERY high degree of computer ability; a really excellent product geared to a specific niche (I concede that he does a wonderful job of explaining how to assess various products / niches for that role); and then an ongoing, consistent willingness to tweak and optimize.

I think for people who 'get' business in the first place, 4HWW is an even better way to do business, if your intent is to get out of having to do business in order to reap the rewards of it. The ideas about losing some money in order to gain some mobility and / or leisure of course make sense. The ideas about leveraging by means of Western versus less-developed currencies are of course sensible. But the thing about it is ... you have to go into business. It requires that you 'get' business IN THE FIRST PLACE.

You have to "like" selling. You have to know what people want to buy. You have to agree that their act of buying your stuff isn't somehow WRONG or EVIL. You have to ... buy the myth. I can't. I wish I could.

As I've said before, I failed freshman Economics. And it wasn't some kind of deliberate resistance. I wasn't propounding a "theory" that made me "angry at the establishment" or anything. I just looked at the textbook, instantly instinctively responded, "Hahahaha that's a great JOKE, my goodness what a good laugh," and got zeroes on the tests.

I know there's hope for me somewhere. I just haven't found out where, yet.

Eolake Stobblehouse said...

What is wrong or evil about people buying your product if it's a good one?

Anonymous said...

Also, if you don't like the concept of property switching hands and services being rendered in exchange of money, what are you looking money making ideas for? What would you do with the money?

Pascal [P-04referent] said...

Why, cremate it, of course. To burn the Golden Bull idol.
Do it with enough cash, and the whole evil worldwide capitalistic system will crumble.

Anonymous said...

Let Project Mayhem take care of that stuff, P.

Cliff Prince said...

I objected as a principle, not as a rational discourse. Duh. :P

No, seriously, it does sometimes surprise me when people take my rather intelligent objections and indicate they're not happy with the intelligence because, taken to a logical extreme, they would somehow question the whole system.

Yes, that's what I'm doing. Questioning the whole system. Glad you noticed. :)

Further some other time. I don't have the energy right now. Just a simple concept: what if man is inherently not a marketing animal? What if we're all communists at heart? Then aren't we all running away from our hearts every minute we seek to market a commodity?

I don't necessarily believe that. I just feel that the OTHER system -- ugh. buy. sell. mm good. things good. buy more. ugh. -- is too often accepted without sensible questioning.

Anonymous said...

Why do you have such a need to change/control others?

In libertarianism we think we have the right to live our lives as we please as long we don't mess with other people's right to same.

In Democracy the majority decides what's best for everyone. Invariably this majority will decide that its OK to confiscate some part of the productive output of every citizen for use as the majority sees fit. It is from this confiscation of people's work that the concept of politics arises. As soon as there's stolen money that belongs to no one, people start to politicise over what to do with it. After all, stolen money tends to burn in your hands causing you to spend it fast and carelessly, so better lobby quick and forcefully if you are going to have any say on where it goes.

Communism is Democracy taken to its perverse extreme. Now everything you produce is confiscated by the Government, and decisions are made by an even smaller group of people. The problem is that when you no longer have any say over what happens to your creative output you are no longer motivated to create anything.

The way I understand you, F. I., is that you want the System to confiscate output from others and give to you. You, on the other hand, should be exempt from having to produce anything of value for confiscation because you have read more classic literature books than the average person. Correct?

Cliff Prince said...

TTL: I wasn't advocating anything, as I made ABUNDANTLY CLEAR. But I do find it funny that an advocate of laissez-faire style capitalism would suggest that the opposition has a need to control others. For me, the entire imposition of laissez-faire style free market impositions has been nothing BUT living the life someone else has insisted I "should" want to live, and NEVER being free to live the one I'd personally rather live.

I'm sorry I've mentioned a sacred cow at all. My statements about it have already been grossly misrepresented. This is what happens when you question an assumption which someone else holds both (a) dear and (b) unknowingly. It's clearly not a topic which can be discussed by others here rationally. I'll shut up about it now.

Pascal [P-04referent] said...

Correction, TTL: as soon as there's money that officially belongs to everyone collectively, therefore to no-one in particular, therefore it gets stolen, and those in a position to steal it become "politicians". Probably because they rob you in a polite style, "it is for the common good, you wouldn't want to be selfish now, would you?", making you feel like somehow you should be thanking them.
:-(

I think what really bugs Final, is simply the feeling that he's being robbed not of money, but of his life effort, by being under-paid by the current System, be it the fault of theory or its application, no matter. Brazen exploitation, under whatever label.

We know A LOT about exploitation in Lebanon. We probably pay more for our electricity and telecoms than anyone else in the world.
"A day older and deeper in debt"...

Criticism is easy. Trying to understand appears uncommon.

Anonymous said...

Final Identity said: "I wasn't advocating anything, as I made ABUNDANTLY CLEAR."

Huh? My response was to this questioning of yours:

what if man is inherently not a marketing animal? What if we're all communists at heart? Then aren't we all running away from our hearts every minute we seek to market a commodity?

My point being (1) no, we are not communists at heart, and (2) man is inherently a marketing animal.

Pascal "corrected": ... as soon as there's money that officially belongs to everyone collectively, therefore to no-one in particular, therefore it gets stolen, and those in a position to steal it become "politicians".

Actually, I think the stealing happens at the moment of confiscation (a.k.a. taxation of income). For I believe one of our inalienable rights is full ownership of what we personally produce. Therefore the money continues to belong (morally) to the taxpayer, and those in position to use it are misappropriating what has already been stolen.

There are other forms of government income I have no problem with. For example customs, taxes on polluting the environment, some fines, etc.

Anonymous said...

Final's just pissed off because he's talentless and lazy - a bad combination! And in SERIOUS denial about it, too!

Anonymous said...

Final is a loser, that's for sure!

Cliff Prince said...

"I think what really bugs Final, is simply the feeling that he's being robbed not of money, but of his life effort, by being under-paid by the current System, be it the fault of theory or its application, no matter. Brazen exploitation, under whatever label."

Thanks for your rephrase. Well put. Funny how even mentioning that potentiality gets some people (viz., this thread's trolls) very very angry. As though perhaps ... it hits them too close to home? They too are being exploited? Or DOING the exploiting?

It's just the injustice that gets me, and the untenable lifestyle. Working 80 or 100 hours a week, then having to go into debt in order to have a safe place to sleep, simply doesn't cut "middle class lifestyle" in the developed west. And yet that's about what our politicians are feeding us as "the norm" these days. I choose to do without a lot of life's luxuries, and I'm HAPPY to live less materialistically. But I can't choose to do without food or love, and each of those has a subtle link to material. I am not comfortable exploiting others; therefore, I have yet to find a comfortable or tenable niche in our current "system" (as you call it, Pascal). I also know plenty of others in a similar boat, for whom the "system" subtly changed to a disastrous extent.

I'm personally not in favor of (as some seem to have understood) either laziness or communism (which are not closely related at all, by the way). The economic arguments going on in this thread tend to skirt issues, and base all statements on a set of rather capitalist assumptions. It's entirely possible, for example, that inherently, MORALLY, I'm neither "a born communist" nor "born as a marketing animal." I'm just ... me. I know people who LIKE their work, and therefore make a lot of money off of it. I know people who HATE their work, and therefore, because they're doing something that a lot of other people really wouldn't want to do, make a lot of money off of it. Tell me where you stand on that one?

Actually, don't bother. I'm not happy with addressing these issues in such a round-about manner. What I'd like to point out is simply one single important point:

I don't know anyone who thinks of his work as anything other than soul-destroying. I want to keep my soul.

Done. Thanks.

Pascal [P-04referent] said...

Well, it DOES seem that Resident Anonymous Flamer works precisely in the soul-destroying business.

Too bad I already sold my soul long ago, so now I'm immune to "raf" treatment.
}:-)

"I also know plenty of others in a similar boat, for whom the "system" subtly changed to a disastrous extent."

Well, all those reports about the impact of Bush's internal politics HAVE to reflect something in real life. And something massive, at that.

Anonymous said...

Final Identity said:
"I don't know anyone who thinks of his work as anything other than soul-destroying. "

Really? Most people I know like their jobs.

Anonymous said...

Don't feed the troll.
And don't get too close to the cage, it's vicious.

Anonymous said...

Final Identity said: "I don't know anyone who thinks of his work as anything other than soul-destroying."

[ The above is actually a troll on behalf of Final Identity. He wrote it in order to elicit a certain kind of feedback. ]

Work is one of our primordial needs, and it nourishes the soul rather then destroys it. Of course, it goes without saying that you should only do work you enjoy.

If you do not work (= exercise your unique abilities in a meaningful way) you become depressed. If you let other people influence what you work on or how, you become burned out.

By reading the above two sentences you just saved yourself from going through hundreds of psychology books and thousands of "scientific" studies on the subjects of "clinical" depression and burnout. Not to mention saving thousands of bucks and hours of time on self-help material, therapist sessions, drugs, alcohol and 12-step group meetings.

Of course, this wisdom has been available condensed into a single sentence already since 1904:

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."

All this perennial wisdom brought to you free here on Sir Eolake's blog. Amazing!

Anonymous said...

Actually, my previous comment wasn't ABOUT Final Identity, but TO him. :)
A guy who tries to be meaningful isn't a troll. Maybe an overworked shoemaking leprechaun, but that's as far as it goes.

Remember, lassies: always leave a reasonable reward for the leprechauns near your shoes in the evening, they'll do a better work and they'll enjoy it. So sez me dear grannie.
A glass o' fresh milk is a good start. Strenghtens them little bones, bless their hearts.